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Communist China's War Preparations


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#1 Guest_Eagle Strike_*

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 01:10 AM

Include all articles and commentary on Chi-comm war preps in this thread. Not to be confused with the "The Shanghai Cooperation Org: World War Axis, compilation thread" http://thefinalphase...p?showtopic=201 which deals more with foreign policy developments of the Axis.

Here is one:

http://www.washtimes...21539-3317r.htm

China sub secretly stalked U.S. fleet
By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
November 13, 2006

A Chinese submarine stalked a U.S. aircraft carrier battle group in the Pacific last month and surfaced within firing range of its torpedoes and missiles before being detected, The Washington Times has learned.

The surprise encounter highlights China's continuing efforts to prepare for a future conflict with the U.S., despite Pentagon efforts to try to boost relations with Beijing's communist-ruled military.

The submarine encounter with the USS Kitty Hawk and its accompanying warships also is an embarrassment to the commander of U.S. forces in the Pacific, Adm. William J. Fallon, who is engaged in an ambitious military exchange program with China aimed at improving relations between the two nations' militaries.

Disclosure of the incident comes as Adm. Gary Roughead, commander of the U.S. Navy's Pacific Fleet, is making his first visit to China. The four-star admiral was scheduled to meet senior Chinese military leaders during the weeklong visit, which began over the weekend.

According to the defense officials, the Chinese Song-class diesel-powered attack submarine shadowed the Kitty Hawk undetected and surfaced within five miles of the carrier Oct. 26.

The surfaced submarine was spotted by a routine surveillance flight by one of the carrier group's planes. The Kitty Hawk battle group includes an attack submarine and anti-submarine helicopters that are charged with protecting the warships from submarine attack.

According to the officials, the submarine is equipped with Russian-made wake-homing torpedoes and anti-ship cruise missiles.

The Kitty Hawk and several other warships were deployed in ocean waters near Okinawa at the time, as part of a routine fall deployment program. The officials said Chinese submarines rarely have operated in deep water far from Chinese shores or shadowed U.S. vessels.

A Pacific Command spokesman declined to comment on the incident, saying details were classified.

Pentagon spokesmen also declined to comment.

The incident is a setback for the aggressive U.S.-China military exchange program being promoted by Adm. Fallon, who has made several visits to China in recent months in an attempt to develop closer ties.

However, critics of the program in the Pentagon say China has not reciprocated and continues to deny U.S. military visitors access to key facilities, including a Beijing command center. In contrast, Chinese military visitors have been invited to military exercises and sensitive U.S. facilities.


Additionally, military intelligence officials said Adm. Fallon has restricted U.S. intelligence-gathering activities against China, fearing that disclosure of the activities would upset relations with Beijing.

The restrictions are hindering efforts to know more about China's military buildup, the officials said.

"This is a harbinger of a stronger Chinese reaction to America's military presence in East Asia," said Richard Fisher, a Chinese military specialist with the International Assessment and Strategy Center, who called the submarine incident alarming.

"Given the long range of new Chinese sub-launched anti-ship missiles and those purchased from Russia, this incident is very serious," he said. "It will likely happen again, only because Chinese submarine captains of 40 to 50 new modern submarines entering their navy will want to test their mettle against the 7th Fleet."

Pentagon intelligence officials say China's military buildup in recent years has produced large numbers of submarines and surface ships, seeking to control larger portions of international waters in Asia, a move U.S. officials fear could restrict the flow of oil from the Middle East to Asia in the future.

Between 2002 and last year, China built 14 new submarines, including new Song-class vessels and several other types, both diesel- and nuclear-powered.

Since 1996, when the United States dispatched two aircraft carrier battle groups to waters near Taiwan in a show of force, Beijing also has bought and built weapons designed specifically to attack U.S. aircraft carriers and other warships.

"The Chinese have made it clear that they understand the importance of the submarine in any kind of offensive or defensive strategy to deal with a military conflict," an intelligence official said recently.

In late 2004, China dispatched a Han-class submarine to waters near Guam, Taiwan and Japan. Japan's military went on emergency alert after the submarine surfaced in Japanese waters. Beijing apologized for the incursion.

The Pentagon's latest annual report on Chinese military power stated that China is investing heavily in weapons designed "to interdict, at long ranges, aircraft carrier and expeditionary strike groups that might deploy to the western Pacific."

It could not be learned whether the U.S. government lodged a protest with China's government over the incident or otherwise raised the matter in official channels.

#2 Wadi66

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 01:56 AM

A Chinese submarine stalked a U.S. aircraft carrier battle group in the Pacific last month and surfaced within firing range of its torpedoes and missiles before being detected,

What happened to our ability to detect them? Oh wait, that's part of the info Billy gave them huh. Thanks Bill.... not.
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#3 Guest_Eagle Strike_*

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 01:19 PM

What happened to our ability to detect them? Oh wait, that's part of the info Billy gave them huh. Thanks Bill.... not.



Its not just Bill. Lax attitudes towards hiring foreign nationals are doing us in as well. There is no longer an American pride. Remember just several months ago some Chinese nationals were arrested for spying by the FBI. They were working for a defense company and they got access to...if I remember correctly, all the communications technology of the US Naval forces. I am done blaming if its a Demonrat or Repugnants fault. What matters is America...and right now we are in dire straights. If this story is true and the Chicomms can track our vessels undetected.....well, our Naval power just got aced.

#4 Newshound

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 01:42 PM

Don't forget that our EP-3 aircraft (and all on-board technology/information that wasn't destroyed by US crewmen) was lost on Bush's watch. For all of Clinton's handouts, he is not the only weak link.

http://en.wikipedia....Island_incident

#5 Gadsden

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 02:06 PM

Does anyone know of any evidence that our Ohio class submarines can be tracked (by noise, magnetic signatures, gravity waves)? I mean anything, including hunches or rumors. That capability if combined with these undetectable Chinese subs would pretty much turn the tables on our naval superiority. Otherwise, the Ohios are now our last big ace in the hole (assuming the current story isn't a US psyop).

#6 Apollo5600

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 02:07 PM

Posted by "Desert Fox":

Quote:
The surfaced submarine was spotted by a routine surveillance flight by one of the carrier group's planes.

That statement alone gives huge reason to doubt the report. We have radars that can detect a periscope, and other detection technology I won't mention. The suggestion that a plane would be the first to spot a surfaced submarine is ludicrous. I won't say this event is impossible, but I severely doubt it happened the way they say.


http://www.freeconse...ead.php?t=41662

#7 massrepublican

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 04:55 PM

Posted by "Desert Fox":
http://www.freeconse...ead.php?t=41662


I worked at General Dynamics Electric Boat Div., and I doubt very much that the diesel sub hid from our subs of for that matter surface ships. We probably tracked it the whole time, and when it came up we had to play our hand. Let them think we don't know they were there. The Tridents are pretty damn quiet, and thats all I say on that subject for obvious reasons.

By the way, Blind Mans Bluff is an excellent boat on the history of submarine espionage.

#8 Guest_Eagle Strike_*

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 06:05 PM

The sub wasn't diesel. It doesn't mention that it was diesel in the article. And why do people continually discount Chicomm/Russian tech and intentions? The fact is they do have technology to negate our Navy now.

I think someone high up with knowledge of this incident leaked this for a reason. To tell the casual American who may have read this that we are very, very vulnerable.

#9 massrepublican

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 06:42 PM

The sub wasn't diesel. It doesn't mention that it was diesel in the article. And why do people continually discount Chicomm/Russian tech and intentions? The fact is they do have technology to negate our Navy now.

I think someone high up with knowledge of this incident leaked this for a reason. To tell the casual American who may have read this that we are very, very vulnerable.


Perhaps you should re-read the article.

According to the defense officials, the Chinese Song-class diesel-powered attack submarine shadowed the Kitty Hawk undetected and surfaced within five miles of the carrier Oct. 26.

#10 Gadsden

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 07:24 PM

China's diesel submarines aren't necessarily primitive. From Heritage Foundation:


http://www.heritage....ific/wm1001.cfm

Admiral Zhang led PLAN’s submarine modernization program and oversaw the acquisition of four modern Russian-built KILO subs, including the stealthy Type-636. Orders for eight more are on the books, with the first new boats to be delivered this month [March, 2006]. That three Russian shipyards are at work to fill China’s orders for new submarines betrays this build-up’s urgency.

Admiral Zhang isn’t relying solely on the Russians. He has also increased production—to 2.5 boats per year—of China’s new, formidable Song-class diesel-electric submarine. China is also testing a new diesel-electric that the defense intelligence community has designated the “Yuan.” The Yuan is heavily inspired by Russian designs, including anechoic tile coatings and a super-quiet seven-blade screw. The addition of “air-independent propulsion,” which permits a submarine to operate underwater for up to 30 days on battery power, will make the Song and Yuan submarines virtually inaudible to existing U.S. surveillance networks—and even to U.S. subs.

These new submarines will be more lethal when armed with Russian SKVAL (“Squall”) torpedoes, which can reach 200 knots. There are reports that the SKVAL is already operational on some Chinese subs. As well, Russia has also transferred the Novator 3M-54E three-stage anti-ship cruise missile to China’s submarine fleet for use against aircraft carriers. Each Chinese KILO is armed with four of these missiles.

There's also an interesting quote from Admiral Roughead:

I’m always asked about the Chinese threat and I say, ‘It’s not a threat,’ because you have to have two things to have a threat, and that’s capability and intent. There is no question that the PLA navy is modernizing and building its capability and is moving very quickly, but what is the intent?


Roughead knows perfectly well but cannot say: Capability IS intent.

#11 FlyingPhoenix

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 07:32 PM

One of the local music stations mentioned the story. They reacted as if it were a joke. The story was dismissed because the Chinese value WalMart too much.

#12 Guest_Eagle Strike_*

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 09:56 PM

China's diesel submarines aren't necessarily primitive. From Heritage Foundation:
http://www.heritage....ific/wm1001.cfm

Admiral Zhang led PLAN’s submarine modernization program and oversaw the acquisition of four modern Russian-built KILO subs, including the stealthy Type-636. Orders for eight more are on the books, with the first new boats to be delivered this month [March, 2006]. That three Russian shipyards are at work to fill China’s orders for new submarines betrays this build-up’s urgency.

Admiral Zhang isn’t relying solely on the Russians. He has also increased production—to 2.5 boats per year—of China’s new, formidable Song-class diesel-electric submarine. China is also testing a new diesel-electric that the defense intelligence community has designated the “Yuan.” The Yuan is heavily inspired by Russian designs, including anechoic tile coatings and a super-quiet seven-blade screw. The addition of “air-independent propulsion,” which permits a submarine to operate underwater for up to 30 days on battery power, will make the Song and Yuan submarines virtually inaudible to existing U.S. surveillance networks—and even to U.S. subs.

These new submarines will be more lethal when armed with Russian SKVAL (“Squall”) torpedoes, which can reach 200 knots. There are reports that the SKVAL is already operational on some Chinese subs. As well, Russia has also transferred the Novator 3M-54E three-stage anti-ship cruise missile to China’s submarine fleet for use against aircraft carriers. Each Chinese KILO is armed with four of these missiles.

There's also an interesting quote from Admiral Roughead:
Roughead knows perfectly well but cannot say: Capability IS intent.



Good find. Now we know that they work as intended.

http://www.csmonitor...ailyUpdate.html


More charges against B2 bomber designer accused of spying
Indicted engineer pleads 'not guilty' to selling secrets to China, Israel, and others.
By Tom Regan | csmonitor.com

Noshir Gowadia, one of the lead engineers on the US B2 stealth bomber project, has been charged with additional counts of spying in an indictment returned by a grand jury last week.

ABC News reported that Mr. Gowadia, who had already been indicted in November 2005 for selling secrets about the B2 to China, was also accused of trying to sell more US classified military information to individuals in Israel, Germany, and Switzerland.

In recent years the FBI and Justice Department believe [Gowadia] went on a marketing campaign, via e-mail, essentially selling information about sensors and the stealth propulsion system to several countries, including China.

"The defendant in this case attempted to profit from his know-how and his knowledge of sensitive military technology," said Ken Wainstein, assistant attorney general for the Justice Department's National Security Division.

Haaretz reports that the allegations of secrets sold to Israel are "secondary" to charges concerning China.

The identities of the Israeli sources have also not been disclosed, nor whether they were private businesspeople or firms. The indictment does not refer to the Israeli government as being involved in the matter.

The Associated Press reports that Gowadia, a naturalized US citizen originally from India, was allegedly paid $110,000 for the information that he passed to China.

An 18-count indictment issued Wednesday alleges that Gowadia designed and helped test for China a hard-to-detect cruise missile nozzle and that he analyzed for his Chinese clients how the modified cruise missile would lock on to U.S. air-to-air missiles.

The indictment also alleges that Gowadia conspired with a Chinese agent to conceal his trips to the communist country to discuss the project. The indictment says the two arranged for Chinese border control authorities not to stamp Gowadia's passport and entry papers when he traveled there.

Air Force Times reports that prosecutors could seek the death penalty for Gowadia, but have not yet decided if they will do so.

Gowadia, who resided in Hawaii before his arrest, pleaded not guilty to the new charges. His trial is set to begin in July 2007. The Honolulu Star-Bulletin reports that Gowadia's son called the charges "ridiculous" and said his father is the subject of a sham prosecution by the US government.


Ashton Gowadia described his father as a hero who has risked his life for 40 years doing work behind the scenes for the United States, had to travel with armed guards and had to carry suicide pills to swallow if he were ever captured. "To go out doing something stupid for $100,000 is ridiculous," he said.

The Gowadia indictment is not the only Chinese espionage case that the US has faced recently. This summer, Ronald N. Montaperto, a former Defense Intelligence Agency analyst had pleaded guilty to "illegally holding classified documents and admitted in a plea agreement to passing 'top secret' information to Chinese intelligence officials," reported The Washington Times

Mr. Montaperto was sentenced to three months house arrest and five years probation. The National Ledger, an independent news website, reported that the judge in the case said that although the charges were serious, he had been "influenced by letters of support from military and intelligence officials who wrote letters on Montaperto's behalf."

Because of the ongoing intelligence tensions between the US and China, both nations are taking "extreme precautions" in building new embassies in each other's capitals, reports Agence France-Presse.

In an apparent bid to avoid any security problems, US State Department spokesman Kendal Smith said the United States and China concluded an agreement giving them the right to use their own workers in constructing the embassies. There are about 500 US workers in Beijing soley responsible for constructing key portions of the embassy, he said.

Around the same number of Chinese workers are in Washington to build their embassy, other sources said

#13 pizzaman

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 10:19 AM

When I read the article that started this particular thread, it reminded me of another incident. Seems to me the Ruskies flew a couple of Migs over the observation deck of this same carrier a couple of years ago. But, I'm sure these kinds of things happen all the time. No need for alarm. Right? The Ruskies and Chicoms are our friends and they are all just playing a big game of tag. /sarcasm
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#14 Guest_Eagle Strike_*

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 12:50 PM

When I read the article that started this particular thread, it reminded me of another incident. Seems to me the Ruskies flew a couple of Migs over the observation deck of this same carrier a couple of years ago. But, I'm sure these kinds of things happen all the time. No need for alarm. Right? The Ruskies and Chicoms are our friends and they are all just playing a big game of tag. /sarcasm


Yep...plasma stealth. http://www.mosnews.c...9/stealth.shtml

No need to worry though like you said.

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 01:24 PM

UPDATE on the sub stalking incident:

http://www.washtimes...23345-3750r.htm



Defenses on subs to be reviewed
By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
November 14, 2006

U.S. aircraft carrier USS Kitty Hawk (AP)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Navy officials confirmed yesterday that an aircraft carrier battle group failed to detect a Chinese submarine that surfaced within weapons range of the USS Kitty Hawk. Anti-submarine defenses for the carrier battle group will be reviewed as a result, they said.

"It was not detected," said one Navy official of the encounter with a Chinese diesel-powered attack submarine. "And we're concerned about that, obviously."


For the rest of the article click the link above.

#16 Gadsden

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 03:29 PM

Imagine the massive psychological intimidation of these undetectable "flybys" and "swimbys" on the brass. I'd be sweating bullets.

#17 bm_cali

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 04:54 PM

Song Class are very similar to Kilo Class. In fact, there has been overt design sharing between Russia and the PRC.

#18 pizzaman

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 04:38 PM

Here's a couple of articles. Seems that China may just be interested in more than just Wal-mart. This is old news for us here.....but it's still disconcerting seeing these kinds of articles getting more and more press. I still wonder if the baloon will go up before the cat is out of the bag about their intentions, or if they are wanting that to happen so they can engage in cold war II?


http://www.worldtrib....070138889.html
Taiwan: China targeting island with 900 missiles on 5 bases

Special to World Tribune.com
EAST-ASIA-INTEL.COM
Thursday, November 16, 2006

China continues its planning to invade Taiwan and now has more than 900 missile targeted on the island, Taiwanese officials said last week.

“Despite China's impressive economic rise, it has become more authoritarian, posing a grave threat to our sovereignty and abusing human rights like never before," Taiwanese President Chen Shuibian said.

Mainland Affairs Council Chairman Joseph Wu also said in Taipei that China is a threat and has supported some of the world’s most notorious violators of human rights.

Chinese missiles are located in five bases in nearby Fujian Province. Additionally, China now has 11 military satellites in orbit.

Noting calls for China to remove the missiles, Chen said it would not be enough. “If China one day removed the missiles from its east coast, they could just transport them all back the next day," he said.

China also is developing cruise missiles and other weapons. “China's acquisition of long-range bombers and mid-air refuelers from Russia means that it seeks to project its military power beyond Taiwan, because Chinese fighter jets wouldn't need to refuel mid-air in a cross-strait attack,” Chen said.

Wu said China seeks to take over Taiwan because it views the island as a "stumbling block to projecting power" throughout Asia.

Wu criticized the United States for mistaking Taiwanese efforts at further democratization as steps toward formal independence.

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http://apnews.myway..../D8LERS880.html
Rice: U.S. Concerned About Rising China
Nov 17, 8:49 AM (ET)
By ANNE GEARAN

HANOI, Vietnam (AP) - The United States has some concerns about a rising China, including a military expansion that may be excessive, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Friday.

Beijing has spent heavily in recent years on adding submarines, missiles, fighter planes and other high-tech weapons to its arsenal and extending the reach of the 2.3 million-member People's Liberation Army, the world's largest fighting force.

Its reported military budget rose more than 14 percent this year to $35.3 billion, but outside estimates of China's true spending are up to three times that level.

"There are concerns about China's military buildup," Rice told a television interviewer. "It's sometimes seemed outsized for China's regional role."

Beijing insists its multibillion-dollar buildup is defensive, but it has alarmed some Asian neighbors and U.S. military planners who see China as a potential threat to U.S. military pre-eminence in the Pacific.

Asked whether U.S. foreign policy toward China is aimed at containing China's ability to flex military power, Rice turned the question to politics and economics.

"U.S. policy is aimed at having China be a responsible stakeholder in international politics," she replied. "That means that Chinese energy, Chinese growth, Chinese incredible innovation and entrepreneurship, would be channeled into an international economy in which everybody can compete and compete equally."

Rice, in Asia with President Bush for a regional economic forum, said China's economic growth "has been a net gain for the international system." But she also ticked off a list of U.S. concerns including questions of economic fairness and China's record on human rights.

"There are concerns about a rising China, concerns about China's transition, concerns about whether the Chinese economy will in fact act in a way that is consistent with the level playing field that the international economy needs," Rice said in the interview with CNBC Asia.

U.S. concerns are manageable within a relationship she described as strong overall, Rice said. She visited China last month to shore up United Nations sanctions against China's ally, North Korea, and she credited Beijing with cooperation in opposing the North's nuclear development.

Bush and Rice were both meeting with their Chinese counterparts during this weekend's Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation summit.

A congressional advisory panel on Thursday questioned China's willingness to be a more responsible international player, saying world prosperity depends on China's abandoning a single-minded pursuit of its "own narrow national interests."

The U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission made 44 recommendations in its annual report to lawmakers. It calls on the United States to combat Chinese attempts to isolate Taiwan by supporting the island's membership in various world bodies, and urges Washington to pressure Beijing to help end the bloody conflict in Sudan's Darfur region.

"While China is a global actor, its sense of responsibility has not kept up with its expanding power," said Larry Wortzel, chairman of the commission, which Congress created in 2000 to investigate U.S.-China issues.

The panel also admonished U.S. intelligence agencies, urging the United States to set up "a more effective program" for gathering information about China's military buildup and development.

In Beijing, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu said she had not seen the report, but "we are against the attempt by any country or any organization to interfere with China's internal affairs under the pretext of the Taiwan question and impede our reunification course."

The report said China's global reach extends beyond East Asia to the Middle East, Africa, South Asia and Latin America, where China "is coming to be regarded almost as a second superpower."

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"Resistance to tyranny is obedience to God." Thomas Jefferson
You can twist perceptions, reality won't budge. Rush 'Show Don't Tell'
"The best is yet to come..." Barack Obama, re-election victory speech, 11-6-2012

#19 Guest_That One Guy_*

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 07:08 PM

Its not just Bill. Lax attitudes towards hiring foreign nationals are doing us in as well. There is no longer an American pride. Remember just several months ago some Chinese nationals were arrested for spying by the FBI. They were working for a defense company and they got access to...if I remember correctly, all the communications technology of the US Naval forces. I am done blaming if its a Demonrat or Repugnants fault. What matters is America...and right now we are in dire straights. If this story is true and the Chicomms can track our vessels undetected.....well, our Naval power just got aced.


If you ask me, they've already had our military technology for a long time. Now is when they make their "dry runs" to see how well their well-planned tactics actually pan out against their already gathered intelligence. So far so good for the Chinese. :unsure:

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Posted 30 November 2006 - 05:14 PM

If you ask me, they've already had our military technology for a long time. Now is when they make their "dry runs" to see how well their well-planned tactics actually pan out against their already gathered intelligence. So far so good for the Chinese.

The Chinese are in the news again -- hacking the US Navy!
Bill Gertz reports over at the Washington Times:
http://www.washingto...03049-5042r.htm

Jim